Roger E Pedersen. What do you think?

So firstly I have been studying a bachelor of Games at a my local university.
They used the book written by Roger E. Pedersen as the basis for the Design component.

The book, and the subsequent Degree is a pile of crap. I won't name the University because the Degree and it's content was forced on them by a bunch of Bureaucrats and they are simply trying to make the best of a bad situation. In fact the Lecturers in charge are my two favourite at the whole Uni.

I have since met Roger online through the very dubious organisation of IGDA , of whom Tim Langdell was a former member (just as a reference that everyone may know).
Side note: I have found the organisation to be more than less than helpful. It seems to be a giant pile of former industry has-beens promoting themselves in order to fund their retirement.
I also spoke to him through other media forms.

I have found the man to be uninspiring, arrogant and completely clueless on the gaming industry and designing games. Just as a personal non-objective opinion.

I also looked up as much as I could about him online (given that around 20 Universities in the world are now basing thier Game Design Degrees from this man's work). All I could find was his own self promotion copy-pasted over and over again. When I tried to look into his claims of being a top industry game designer, making "70+ AAA games titles" since "1980", "sold over 10 million copies". I started to find that this was less than true, in some of the games he claims to have designed he was only a typographist or worse. In one he is not even mentioned in the credits at all. Almost all of the games he claims to have worked on are old DOS games, I cannot find anything from the man past the early 1990's. None of them seemed to have sold very well at all from what I could find.
Other claims about companies he has directed etc. also seem to be untrue.
In fact I can find no record of him ever being involved in any company in any major way. I did find 3 game titles that had him credited as one of the design team, but they were all flops.

Are others finding this as well or does my research simply suck??

I really hate to sound like Bruce. But to me this guy feels like he may be a bit of a scammer. If that is so, what does it mean for the industry and students who are hoping to get into the industry if our courses are based from his muck?

Has anyone else ever met the man in person or read the book as well?
What do you lot know of this guy?

I would love to see if I am not alone and if maybe others hate his book and work as much as me. Perhaps I am wrong and he is simply an old arrogant stick-in-the-mud who can make games and I am truly just a n00b. I'd love to be wrong. But I kinda have this sinking feeling that I am not entirely wrong here.

NOTE: I wanted to post a bunch of links, but I don't have enough posts just yet.

 

I don't know the book, or the author, but it wouldn't surprise me that someone with very vague industry credentials has a) written a book, and b) weaselled their way into being used as reference material in a teaching course.

Other than that though, I really wouldn't worry about it too much. He may be a 'scammer', but there might be useful insight in his book (not having read it I couldn't say). But I would say that it doesn't mean very much for the industry, or even the students, that his work is being referenced. Graduates from games courses are only partly judged on the quality of the course itself. Pretty much always we find that the courses themselves are weak, and the material often out of date, mis-directed, badly taught, or any combination of the above. Mostly we're interested in the students themselves - their ability to debate, to learn, and to appreciate the intricacies of making games.

Education itself doesn't guarantee a place in the industry, it never has. All it provides you is an opportunity to find out about the subject matter, and a starting point for your own learning. On that note, I'd say don't get hung up on who your course materials are coming from. Assume that they are suspect, and do your own research.

Does Pederson claim that some design principle is true and incontrovertible? Check it out. Think through all the games you've played; if you enjoyed them, did they follow his principle? If you didn't, did they break his rule? If all of the examples you can come up with confirm what he's saying, then it's probably a good bet that principle is right. Otherwise, he's wrong, but more than that, he's wrong and you know why.

When you finally get to an interview stage, you'll find that they don't give a toss whose book you learned from, what they care about is that for every bit of information that was handed to you in that book, you know enough about the subject to argue the pros and cons either way.

So don't treat the course text as a bible, or the author as an oracle; treat it as a list of points to discuss and debate.

 

He's on facebook - http://www.facebook.com/roger.e.pedersen

Irony detected.

 

He has given a few talks that were interesting. You can check a few of them out at at moby games (sorry, I can't post URL's, just type his name and you'll find it). As for saying he is right or wrong, I wouldn't exactly say that there is a very black and white development golden rule except if you don't impress and meet your customer's expectations or are able to modify and change their expectations, you'll be looking for work later on. As with anyone offering advice, you of course need to mold and edit it to your own circumstances (just look at how many studios are using a combination of agile/scrum/waterfall for their design and development!).

And if your university is using that book as a bible of sorts, perhaps they do need to look at something more readily applicable rather than points from a person who designed back in the 90's and hasn't done much since.


Sidenote on the IGDA:
I like the IGDA. Or more to the point, I like certain chapters of the IGDA that really have a fantastic network of support and desire to see game development improve and those who work in this area have a better quality of life. Unfortunately, not too many chapters run the same or have the same success as the minority of them. If you'd like to know a few of the more active and good ones, let me know so I don't take your thread off topic.

Chin up though!

 

that's a sorta creepy 'about me' section on his facebook. i've never seen someone post resume-ish stuff there before.

oddly, it says we have 8 friends on facebook in common. that's even creepier. lol

the 'alice in planet wonderland' stuff that he has posted as (C) PSI software, inc. is pretty much straight-up dubious (and terrible looking at that).



lol

 

It was his work on that game that prompted my thoughts about him. It really looks like very amateurish stuff to me. Also he touts his "experience" a lot. So much so that I began to question it.

@Serendipity: I attempted to contact several chapters, but no one seems to ever reply. I was thinking about becoming a member of the GDAA. Does anyone here know much about them? But yes, I'd love to know of any chapters that are active and would like a Game Developer from Hobart - Tasmania to be a member in the IGDA.
I read Roger's talks at Moby games and found them to be just more uninspired stuff that seems like it was copied and pasted from someone elses work (not that I am saying it was, it just feels that way).

So far the best work I have read about Game Design was the Book "The Art of Game Design" by Jesse Schell. I really like his 'Zen' (my term not his) approach to designing games.

 

where do we start?....I wouldn't waste your money, unless you plan to go to GDC or make use of some of the discount offers membership will gain you, thats about the only benefit you'll ever see from what is essentially a self serving, self important, self indulgant, incredibly incompetant, badly run, and holier than thou organisation that represents only itself.

 

Thanks for the tip.
So are there any organisations that assist people trying to get into the industry, magazines that have good information in them, that sort of thing?

Another side note.. about me:

My degree is actually a Computer Science degree with the web stuff removed and gaming units added for core and some art and design units added as elective options. I already have a Diploma of Computer Programming, Diploma of Networkin Engineering and a Diploma of Web Development. I also have a Diploma of Small Business management, experience Managing (not owning) Tasmania's largest Gaming and Internet 'Cafe' as well as experience as aSys Admin and Web Design. Currently I work as the head of IT and Media for a large 4 star Restaurant here in Hobart.
So I'm not fussed if I never manage to break the industry as far as getting a job goes.

However I have been working with Games (non-computer) since I won (co-won actually) a competition Hasbro ran in the 1980's for ideas to improve the board game Monopoly. I have made contributions to a number of games in small ways. I also tinker and make board games and computer games in my spare time.

----

Anyway back to my question there. I am trying to find good credible sources of information to give me more insight and understanding about the industry and making games. I already read a lot of the online material whenever I can. But it is much easier to have someone collate it for you and send you a regular e-zine or mag to flick through. lol.

I have wife+kids, part-time jobs and full time uni that takes most of my time you see.

From here we get back to why I was hunting down people like Roger etc.
I was very dissapointed when I saw his "work" posted on facebook.

 

Really? No one else going to step up to the plate? No one else man enough to say the obvious? Okay then I'll do it.

Pederson - paedo-smile more like.

/Seriously, never ever smile like that.
//He's almost certainly not a pederast, it's just all pederasts smile like that.

 

I have to ask....if you have all these diplomas....have you written any (computer) games?

If the answer is no....then you really should look elsewhere. Game programming is a driven profession, you need to prove you have that drive and ability by developig work, that will get you somewhere.

If the answer is yes...show it to people....if its good you'll get work, if not...see above.


A lot of people on the periphery of gaming, mix up the idea of playing enjoyment with wanting to write games...trust me...its a whole different world. You have to enjoy and understand the process of game development to be able to make a career out of it and everything you list suggests you don't.

 

I work with AI and have written AI for games before. I am a damn fine AI developer if I do say so. I am not much of an artist and I hold no illusions about ever becoming a game designer (unless I am lucky).

That said I am working on an indie game at the moment. Building some prototypes in my spare time. I work hard at developing my skills.

I have always made games, spent my whole life making them instead of playing them like everyone else did.

The problem has been that until recently there just wasn't a game industry here in Aus. It has been little indie game developers trying to get whatever they could out there. Even IT courses are actually new where I live. lol.
Actually a lot of Tasmanian's think of the internet as new. We have worse internet infrastructure than Pakistan as an example.
There just was not any way to gain any gaming related qualifications at all. Without that I had no way to learn as there was no way to gain experience here.

This degree is the first thing to ever come out relating to games in Tasmania and the first year of it just ended.

A lot of people say that the industry is cut-throat and hard to get into, that the courses do not matter at all. Yet if it is so cut-throat then having a degree in Games is obviously going to be better than nothing at all.
I also see a LOT of Jobs advertised for all sorts of positions. If they are trying to stop us from getting into the industry then they are going about it the wrong way. lol.

I was at a conference on the topic in Sydney a year ago where several Game designers (employed, most of them worked in Sony at the time) talked about how the issue is not that the Degrees are worthless or that the industry is so hard to get into (per se). It is a combination of resistance to change in the industry coupled with a lot of these old school designers etc. who are actually very poor designer/developers who were first on the scene, so they often have a lot of sway resisting a lot of the more trained and skilled up-and comers who would easily take thier jobs if they were able to gain enough experience.

The problem the new entries into the industry often have is that they are trained in game design and/or development but rarely understand the business side of things. They tend to make games that appeal to them without thought for risk management or the salability of the game. My management training and experience (a lot of which I didn't mention before) can demonstrate that I understand that side of game design and development. I am also a demonstrated and competant programmer and non-computer game designer. All I need is a few more skills relating to Computer Game Design and to get a couple of my own games out there.

So long as my degree is teaching me quality skills and is recognised by the indutry I think it is well worth it. The fact that it qualifies me for areas outside of the games industry is a safety blanket I can use for the time being.
Not that I really need it. lol.

 

This makes me think... if I took my current resume 10 years into the future people would say I don't know what I'm talking about too. (People might say that now too, but they're jerks!)

People trading off some cup of tea in the game industry 15 years ago are all over. I guess that book royalties are actually nice supplemental retirement income or something. I wouldn't worry about it much. You've correctly identified the problems with the IGDA and you seem capable of weighing Roger E. Pedersen's and anyone else's ideas according to their merits.

 

Thanks for the response guys.

 

Professor Roger Pedersen

I am a student at Bloomfield College studying Game Design and Roger has been my professor for Game Design, Torque 3D Engine and Senior Capstone classes.He also teaches at NYU, DeVry and UAT.If you check the Internet you would find the following:Article on his book: http:[slash][slash]portfolio[dot]jblearning[dot]com[slash]computing-gaming[slash]2009[slash]9[slash]27[slash]gdc-austin-cements-jbs-presence-in-game-development[dot]htmlIn class last week, he had us read from the prestigious Game Career Guide:http:[slash][slash]gamecareerguide[dot]com[slash]features[slash]812[slash]game_design_foundations_game_[dot]php I believe that you guys are ignorant and wrongly opinionated.Paul

 

Like so much trash in a Shanghai gutter?

 

Fixed the formatting and links on the above post to see if it actually made any more sense. Turns out: not really.

Paul - you're welcome to your beliefs, but as you can see by reading the thread, we've actually done a bit of research into Mr Pederson here, so to try to label us ignorant just serves to undermine your opinion. Had you come on and gave a glowing review of Mr. Pederson as a teacher, and how he has personally convinced you of his merits as a games industry expert, then that would have carried some weight. As it is, you've just come along, accused us of ignorance, and posted two links which pretty much only confirm what we've said so far. We know he's written a book, but in itself that means nothing at all. We know he's currently teaching, but that doesn't mean much either, other than that those who employ him have been convinced that he knows what he's talking about, which doesn't mean much either, unless those who employ him are also games industry experts.

The fact is - the posters here are games industry experts, and we've yet to be convinced. You can believe that we're wrong if you like, but the measure of his competence will be in whether or not you come out of your course as a capable games designer or not.

 

Shanghai has gutters ??

 

Pedersen is a fraud

I've known about Pedersen for quite some time and I can tell you the man is an utter fraud. He knows next to nothing about computers or programming but has an odd obsession with video games and to lesser extent computer technology in general.

He is not intelligent, charismatic, attractive, or outgoing; in short, he has none qualities you would think are necessary characteristics of even a modestly successful con man. Nevertheless, he has managed to BS his way into several positions he is not even remotely qualified for, though he never lasts long.

At one point he actually (quite foolishly, in my opinion) even had posted a piece online that gave some insight into how he operates. It was a how-to on how to pad your game developer resume by getting yourself 'associated' in some way shape or form with a project and then misrepresenting your 'role'. To give you an idea of just how thin these 'associations' were, in one case he admitted to taking credit as the "musical director" or some similarly lofty title for a game based on the fact that he suggested a song or a game soundtrack via unsolicited email communication with a game development company.

Basically, if he delivered a pizza to a game development studio he'd likely characterize that as serous game development experience on his resume.

His most impressive coup to date, so far as I know, is having apparently talked his way into teaching a class in game design at NYU. It's hard to believe NYU could be so unsophisticated and sloppy in their background check (Pedersen has no credentials whatsoever, his only 'education' being from diploma mills), but he did appear on what looked like a legitimate NYU website as an adjunct faculty member back around 2005. Unless it was a fake webpage, that would have to be his greatest con yet.

I know people who worked with him a company where he'd conned his way into a position as principle software engineer for about 5 months, always making excuses as to why he had produced no code. In all that time he wrote about 6 lines of incoherent code that made it clear he simply didn't know how to program. I'm surprised he even managed to graduate from those diploma mill institutions (gee, did he?)


BTW, I could be wrong, but I suspect the poster who was defending Pedersen so adamantly is probably Pedersen himself.

Watch out for this rat; he's like a homely, uncharasmatic version of Tony Curtis in "The Great Imposter".